A conversation with Sarah Hudson, December 2 2021, Jordan’s house.

Jordan Davey-Emms: So, in 2020, the three of us knew how we were using and relating to the materials involved in paint making: kōkōwai/earth pigments/clay/rock, and tree gums. Our experiences were personal, but isolated. Was the Mana Whenua project initiated to see how these materials were used—or could be used—or imagined—or what that relationship could be like for other people?

Sarah Hudson: Yeah. I came to appreciate working with earth pigments as a living practice, with a living material. I then wanted to know how other people would, or do, engage with it. All of these historical, ethnographic accounts about kōkōwai were what was coming up in our research, written through quite racist lenses. I recognised quite early on that it was hard to find contemporary conversations about this material and I needed to bolster that. We were in our first Covid lock down when I had this yearning for connection. Physical wānanga weren’t appropriate, so I came up with a pen pal model. Being an artist can be really isolating, perhaps even more so for indigenous artists. I saw Mana Whenua as a way to connect people.

JDE: For this project, you sent earth pigment, binders, and questions to eleven Māori practitioners. Were there surprises in what came back?

SH: Yeah. Each one was a surprise! Honestly... To undertake this I had to be quite systematic while upholding the mana of the whenua I was passing on. Like really specifically noting where each sample came from, or who it was gifted by. Getting the responses back felt a bit like Christmas.

JDE: I remember being gobsmacked by the generosity of the exchanges. It’s something we felt strongly in people’s responses to Kauae Raro mahi too. Findings and experiences were shared with such warmth.

SH: Yeah, SUPER generous. I was really humbled and excited. It felt like there was potential to grow this reciprocity. In some ways Mana Whenua was a pretty unusual project. It was research-based, with a quick turn around! It was sparked by us three being unsure about stuff, learning by working it out and sharing. The community vibe is really strong and we believe in shared mātauranga.

JDE: Something that struck me hard through Kauae Raro mahi, was that feeling of friendship and intense connection with the places we visited. Wanting to return to, care for, and learn about places as if they were friends or family. For me as a Pākehā, recognising some kinship with whenua was a big turning point. This work feels best when it’s reciprocal.

SH: And I think that first ignited when we started visiting outside.

JDE: Yeah.

SH: We didn’t know the potential of having a relationship with dirt before... It sounds sooooo airy fairy... But I don’t know how else to talk about this stuff. I care about dirt! We’ve been on a big road trip of realisation. To go: it’s people, and relationship with place. I think that’s been front-of-mind from the beginning. It comes through stronger as we continue. And a community of backyard researchers and practitioners has emerged! Kauae Raro and Mana Whenua have encouraged thousands of people to try, or at least think about, touching dirt.

JDE: And if they can recognise ‘home’ through that process... Ah! It’s so cool. This morning I saw a post by Tessa Williams on instagram. It was a picture of a chain painted with yellow ochre, with a quote attributed to you in the caption. Something like: working with whenua is intrinsically linked to Land Back. And I was like, yup. That’s it.

SH: Yeah. Remembering Māori earth pigment practices has meant that I have spent a bit of time on the international pigment scene. It’s frustrating to see the disconnect between practitioners who work with pigment, and any idea about where it comes from, who belongs to it, what their contemporary lived experiences are. Just lately I’ve been able to articulate it in a way that sums it up. If you’re working with pigments or whenua, even conceptually, and it doesn’t activate you politically… think critically about your material. You need to start. Land Back refers to actual land, but also culture, ceremony, mātauranga. All the stuff that we engage with through Kauae Raro. It seems like heaps of learnings have happened since Mana Whenua, and it’s only been a year and a half since it was published.

JDE: How cool that the knowledge changes and grows. The book is like an anchor.

SH: It is an anchor. It’s a really nice first stepping stone for lots of people

A big thank you to the team at Vernacular for allowing us to share this kōrero.

Head over to their website where Jordan talks with Felixe Laing about starting a new artist-run space Wormhole in her hometown of Edgecumbe.